VAT for non-EU suppliers

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entrepreneur27
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Joined: 09/09/2009
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Answered

Hi Leighton:

I have a membership site and am selling memberships to a global audience (I am based in CA). I recently became aware that if you sell electronically delivered services (which apparently covers website memberships in at least some cases) you are supposed to collect VAT for the various EU governments at the time of sale, and subsequently send them the $$.

The VAT rate varies depending on where the customer is located within the EU.

It seems as though the process of determining the amount to charge and adding it to the subscription based on the address on the credit card might not be too hard. The reporting would be more challenging. Anyway, my question is: Does your software do any of this? 

Leighton Whiting
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Joined: 06/02/2009
Entrepreneur27, I haven't

Entrepreneur27,
I haven't actually dealt with the VAT before (having lived mostly in Asia and America). I wasn't aware it was applicable to online memberships. Could you post any relevant links here so I can give it a read?

The problem is that there is no reliable way to determine where the users are coming from. You can ask them, but what's to stop them from lying? Seems impossible to track and enforce to me. Currently, I don't have any support for this in the module, and I'm not sure the best way to support it at the moment...

Sincerely,
Leighton Whiting

entrepreneur27
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Joined: 09/09/2009
Some links re VAT

I am not an expert, but I think I understand it correctly. It applies to electronic services (when sold to a consumer in the EU from a supplier outside the EU), which has a vague definition. It definitely covers things like digital downloads, and seems to cover memberships in cases where they give access to data etc, although that may be a gray area.

I assume people typically charge the VAT rate that goes with the credit card address location. Not only is this a pain to manage, the reporting etc is a big pain too. I would love to discover there is a way around it. I notice that taking care of all this is one of the "features" that Fastspring mentions. Kagi mentions it too.

Any ideas you have would be great.

Here are some background links:

http://www.ez-eu.com/

http://www.offshore-e-com.com/html/ecomeutax.html 

Leighton Whiting
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Joined: 06/02/2009
One idea is to add a checkbox

One idea is to add a checkbox under the PayPal plans asking the user if they are living in the UK/EU, then if that check box is checked, I can add a feature to add a configurable percentage to the cost of the membership. Would that be feasible?

Sincerely,
Leighton Whiting

Leighton Whiting
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Joined: 06/02/2009
PayPal also has a sales tax

PayPal also has a sales tax option that you can set in the Profile settings, and you can set different taxes for different countries. I don't think the sales tax is applied to Recurring payments though, so that may be a problem, but it should work for One-Time Purchase Memberships.

See http://www.pdncommunity.com/pdn/board/message?board.id=uk&thread.id=1759 for more details.

Sincerely,
Leighton Whiting

entrepreneur27
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Joined: 09/09/2009
Not sure

That might work. I think the percentage varies depending on the country they are in. And it probably changes sometimes. In addition there are a whole bunch of reporting issues and you need to pay the taxes to someone. I am not sure where the optimal demarkation comes, but the whole ecommerce solution for a website seems to somehow need to take this into account. Not sure if your suite can do everything or needs to be integrated with something else.

I would look at integrating with FastSpring and see if that made any sense.

I am still researching this and will let you know if I learn more that is useful.

Leighton Whiting
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Joined: 06/02/2009
Yeah, I think more thought

Yeah, I think more thought needs to be given to this, please post any relevant findings or updates here.

Thanks,
Leighton Whiting

Abilnet
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Joined: 12/07/2009
As an European, I know this

As an European, I know this VAT thing can be important, at least in some cases. However, it can also take a lot of time and effort to try to make it right and keep everything up to date. This European VAT -thing is a great example how a huge group of politically selected overpaid bureaucrats, without any real responsibility nor understanding of real life, can pick a tiny thing up and during the years cook a huge industry around it. Most of the EU-taxes collected, are going just to keep the huge collecting offices up & running.

Sorry, out off topic, but had to say, grr...  ;)

I'm not any taxation expert nor a software designer, but what comes into my mind from MoneyScripts -modules point of view, maybe the easiest solution could be some kind of connection to some other module / system what can take care about VAT and keep the tax authorities happy? (maybe in the ms-scripts settings, just choose PayPal & ClickBank etc. to take care of VAT?)

My personal opinion is, MoneyScripts -modules should mostly focus the resources on how to make it easier for module users to make more business with the modules. Business functionality of the modules is the most important thing. Everything else should come after that, and all kind of assistive things should be avoided if possible.

Maybe these links can give some additional info about the VAT -thingy:

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/index_en.htm

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/traders/invoicing_rules/index_en.htm

shaneod
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Joined: 02/16/2010
 Hi, I bought the module this

 Hi,

I bought the module this afternoon and I already have subscriptions up and running on our site, so, thanks for that it's a sweet system and seems to work a treat.

I am having the VAT problem though, all my customers will be Irish, so I really just need to add 21% VAT to each subscription. 

I could manually add it to the overall price, but i'll have to issue VAT invoices seperately - which isnt the end of the world but I was hoping that Paypal would handle the invoicing for me. 

Any thoughts on this? 

Thanks, 

Shane

Leighton Whiting
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Joined: 06/02/2009
Shane, Yeah, the best way

Shane,
Yeah, the best way would just be to add the tax on yourself in the subscription price. This is what everyone else seems to be doing on the PayPal Forums.

Sincerely,
Leighton Whiting

shaneod
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Joined: 02/16/2010
 Thanks Leighton, it does

 Thanks Leighton, it does seem to be something PayPal are misssing, which is quite remarkable really considering the size of them. Hopefully they''ll sort it out at some stage. 

Pedro Pablo
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Joined: 12/02/2010
Some more ideas about VAT

Taking into account that the VAT thing is something all those selling to or from any EU country would need to take care of, I think it makes some sense trying to figure out a way to deal with it (which btw, I think it would be an excellent feature for MS-Suite to gain market in Europe, where Drupal community is very strong).
Summing up, there are mainly to ways to deal with VAT:
- As an EU seller. The seller only taxes VAT for other EU buyers, no matter the original country of the buyer. Buyers out of EU are not taxed. The tax level is that of the seller's country
- As a seller outside EU selling to EU buyers. The tax level is that of the country of each buyer.

I guess a good approach could be to manage this in a country oriented fashion. In the settings page, add a "use advanced VAT" setting, where you can also specify if you as a seller are located inside or outside EU, and a tax value to be applied if inside. If that option is activated, just ask the buyer where he is from, with a country field, during registry or checkout, and then modify prices accordingly (and save them to same place). It would be easy to have a mini table (or some variables) to store some EU countries and their VAT values (which should be configured by the seller at the time of setting up the suite). As the added taxes would be easily associated to the country where they are dued, reporting, and later payment to authorities would be very easy.

One can argue that asking the buyer where he is from seems not enough to prevent fraud. But buyers are always enforced in the terms of the site to reflect true data, so if there is some fraud in the provided info, it is not the seller's fraud, but the buyer's.
I am not a coder (though I can mostly read it) but it does not look a very heavy task to do. Maybe the need to enforce that country field before checkout... and I think it would help to boost MS-Suite sales in EU

What do you think, Leighton?

tsubodesign
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Joined: 06/21/2011
It seems that this discussion

It seems that this discussion tails off in late 2010. What's the latest on this subject - do I need to be subscribng to a different thread?

 

I now have a need to only apply VAT to UK subscribers on a site with a potentially global market. I've had a play with the MS Taxes sub module but this doesn't seem provide an option for users to specify whether they're UK based or not (and as you've already mentioned, people could just lie).

 

Any updates on this subject would be really appreciated.

Leighton Whiting
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Joined: 06/02/2009
Latest news on this is I am

Latest news on this is I am working on building the functionality into the existing MS Tax module to allow you to specify different ratest depending on the company that was selected.

Sincerely,

Leighton Whiting

Leighton Whiting
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Joined: 06/02/2009
There is now a VAT solution

There is now a VAT solution in the 7.x-2.x dev version of MS Core. I'll be posting a video tutorial explaining how to use it tomorrow, and backporting it to 6.x tomorrow too.

Sincerely,

Leighton Whiting

tsubodesign
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Joined: 06/21/2011
Sounds great. Would love it

Sounds great. Would love it if you could add a link here when you post the video.

Leighton Whiting
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Joined: 06/02/2009
Here's the link:

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